Re: A four man fight

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:18 pm

[Why is my vision blurred? I'm going to guess you had a gas grenade, but I don't see where you threw it. I guess I assume you released the gas somehow. Also I guess I have to assume it's an explosive bolt that you fired because you didn't say it or add it in a spoiler. Tell me if either of these assumptions are incorrect and this post may be subject to void.]

Umtari had been aware of the wire wrapping around him, but for some reason had chosen not to evade it. He did seem ready to jump off the branch if he felt in any immediate danger however. Umtari should have known from experience that being ready for the wire isn't enough, only immediate action could dodge it, especially when you can't even see the attack. However, Navi's impact from the fall would knock him a little senseless, causing his binding technique to not be perfect. If he attempted to bind all of Umtari, he might have the time to slip out and jump off the branch, evading the wire.

Instead Navi elected to bind Umtari's leg by the ankle, he would most likely be unaware of this after the adrenaline and chaos of the fight. Since he hadn't moved, being ready for the wire wouldn't be enough to evade it entirely. He then held Umtari's ankle binded tightly with the wire, and then noticed a gas creeping around him. Navi's mask would filter out all of the gas, although his eyes would be at risk for minor blurring. Navi cupped his hand over his right eye, but wouldn't be able to shield his left eye because of the kunai he was holding. This left Navi in a bad situation, although the paralysis jutsu had now completely worn off. Navi would need to react quickly. He leapt backwards, (which would also yank Umtari off the branch by the ankle along with him) and by the time he had gotten about seven meters away something exploded. This was most likely the bolt that Umtari had fired earlier when he was vulnerable. With any luck Umtari had just been yanked into his own explosive bolt, although it was more likely that he just suffered minor damage. Even Navi who had been able to get some distance away was effected, causing him to fly back and tumble about five meters.

The blast had also torn the kunai from his grasp, causing it to fly wildly from his person. All he had now was a firm grip on the wire tied tightly around his fingers. Navi regained his bearings as he stood up. He uncupped his eye, but still had minor blurring in the other one. The blast had not hurt him other then several bruises from the aftershock. Navi yanked hard on the wire, attempting to drag Umtari towards him by his ankle. He then blew a small amount of fire which raced along the length of the wire.

Spoiler:

Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:50 pm

((Okay, your right to assume there is gas, its from the canister. I never threw it though, I pulled the pin but the things just been leaking silently in my hand. You never got far enough away from me that I had to throw it. Second, I did mention the explosiveness very clearly. I described in detail what would happen and I mentioned an explosive magazine. Considering how explicit that was I didn’t see the need for a spoiler, but minor point. More important though, how in blue blazes did you move seven meters? The tags aren’t on a delay. They go off on impact, it’s a case of hit the ground and bang! Instantaneous. Considering the fact I shot whilst you were still lying on the ground the bolt would have hit the earth well before you got up, let alone moved. This also means it would have thrown the guided kunai wildly off course before it got to me. Remember bolts travel much faster than kunai, much faster. And I won’t even go into the, I will have no time to be ready, business. I can get out of that readily enough, not that I have to worry about it though. Also fingers don’t stop gas, it will just leak through your fingers. Plus the gas is invisible, as much knock out gas is. You could work out you were under the effects but you wouldn’t see it. If that’s what you meant by “notice.” Also, for your information, if you do find a way of cutting off the supply of gas to your eye it will not stop the degradation, your eyes soaked up the gas for a good turn, in which nothing happened, now the effects are starting to kick in but the dosage is already there.))

Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:45 pm

[Relax, its a spar and I needed clarification so I asked for it. We just need to clear things up.
I highlighted what I thought in red about both of your points, and explained my reasoning before for each. I'm sorry for my part in contributing to the confusion.

I never saw you mention "invisible gas", so when you mentioned there being gas I was confused. I hadn't even known I had been exposed because you didn't say anything until a turn after. How is my eye "soaked" in gas. You didn't even pull out the gas grenade to use it until I had fallen completely off the tree. Saying that I'm completely enveloped in a cloud of gas when you haven't thrown it or allowed the gas to spread (while not even mentioning anywhere that it was spreading) is auto-hitting. I mentioned that I fell from the tree at the end of the post when you decided to draw the canister. Gas grenades of all kinds take awhile to actually spread at all, especially from the length of the entire tree. I'm going to call this out and say that the gas didn't reach me that quickly, please mention exactly what you are doing or deploying in the future so there isn't so much confusion. If you are really angry about it, I'll say that the gas can reach me the following turn (the current one we're on). Therefore the effects would begin the next turn.

I do remember the explosive magazine, you are correct. I guess it's my bad cause I forgot you had loaded that. I guess you don't have to, but please say "explosive arrow" or something so I don't get confused. Also a crossbow bolt does admittedly go a little faster then a kunai throw. However, I used manipulated shuriken on you a post before you fired your crossbow. I aimed the "bind your ankle" part when you fired your crossbow on the same turn. The kunai doesn't need to travel at all to bind you, it is right next to you and you chose not to move (therefore this is not autohitting, saying your ready for an attack does not constitute a dodge). Because the explosive arrows are instantaneous I agree I couldn't get seven meters away normally. Even with paralysis jutsu worn off I might be able to get two meters away at most by the time it hits the ground. I will adjust that fact to add more damage to my character, although I argue that the explosion will not effect my wire having binded your ankle, because of the reasons mentioned above. ]

Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:36 pm

((The action that spread the gas was as well described and signalled as it needed to be. The canister was clearly described as was what would be outwardly visible to Navi. The full effects of the weapon are detailed in the relevant weapon profile. This fulfils the requirement to avoid ambiguity and possible exploitation. It is not the equivalent of (drawing from my own inventory) hitting you with an arrow and then claiming it was poisoned. I described everything so there could be no doubt upon checking. As for the auto hitting point if you are in a cloud of gas with nothing to protect your eyes then you will be hit. I don’t have to tell you everything, I just have to mention enough to make sure there can be no doubt about what happened afterwards. This is what I did. Now often describing that much information just throws out info the opponent would never have, this has happened several times in this fight already with varying impact that we won’t go into now. This is one of those rare occasions where I can describe objects in sufficient detail so as to have no doubt as to what they are but I don’t have to describe every little effect it has in the post. This ultimately resulted in a realistic outcome.

I have already said that I do not have to throw it, you never moved far enough away. This thing covers an area the size of a house. You are enveloped. I’ll grant you someone on the edge of the cloud might have a little more time to react. But you are almost completely immobile and near the very centre of the cloud. You are going to be hit. There are ways out of it, but I’m not going to go into those now. You had a post to react, you did not, which is understandable given the scenario. It is highly unlikely you would have ever have known you were getting hit. Also, note. I had the grenade in my hand as I emerged from the tree, which was slightly before you fell off. Also, even if the time line was as you described you would still get hit in the first post. As far as the gas affect is concerned I maintain my position without amendment, I reject you offer to have it affect you a turn later.

As for the position of the kunai in relation to me and the bolt impacting the ground, causing an explosion to throw it off course, I maintain my position in principle. The description of the effects of the explosion, for this moment we will focus purely on the effects on the traveling kunai, clearly state that the kunai will be thrown of course by the blast. In order for this to happen the explosion must occur before the kunai has reached its target, meaning that the bolt impacted the ground in order to explode before your projectile would have reached Umtari. I maintain this is possible due to the greatly, not marginally, superior speeds of a bolt as supposed to a kunai and the fact that the reaction shot was only momentarily after your kunai was thrown, as is generally the way with reaction posts. Umtari would be able to tell the shot would be a miss in the normal course of events well before it got to him. Now, if the kunai and wire was in some way unaffected by the blast I would be more inclined to accept the ankle binding. Perhaps I was a little extreme in saying I could just dodge it, in my mind’s eye it was further away than you envisaged it. However, since the explosion will occur before Umtari is bound and the kunai will be thrown off course the point is moot. This, coincidentally means the explosion will occur before you stand up, unless something unusual happens.

This fight has taken an unfortunate turn, I admit this. I can see that we might end up arguing over every post. I do hope this is not going to be reflective or indicative of future RPing, either with you specifically or the site in general. However, I must maintain my position. I believe it to be right, reasoned, correct and well earned. Let’s bring this to a speedy resolution and get back to having fun.))

Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:09 pm

[My post will not involve something anything about what happened between you two , so I'm posting.]

Nero was now sitting under the shadows of the trees , resting as he realised his wounds were no more bleeding. "My wound is at least not bleeding that badly any more. How about yours , Shuuhei ?" asked Nero as he thought about what was happening between Navi and Umtari. Nero started talking to Shuuhei "Did you know about this Navi guy before ? Do you know anything about him ? I haven't learned much about our new team member either. I know what you know. Only that he uses ranged weapons to fight. I haven't even seen him use a jutsu... I wish I had learned more about all 3 of you.". Nero was still sitting... he rolled a ball-like shaped stone towards Shuuhei. "You know Shuuhei , I know we're both in a bad situation with out wounds , but since we're out of the spar , let's play a game or something. We have to wait until they are over. We can get hit by one of them as an accident if we end up at the wrong place.".

Nero checked the environment once again. The forest always seemed to calm him down and comfort him , no matter how he was... He felt the wind on his skin , smelled the beautiful smell coming from flowers , listened to the birds singing as if they want to comfort the people who can hear them. The forest is the most peaceful place for Nero. He was more comforted here than he was in his house. He turned once again to Shuuhei "So , what do you think we should do ?".

[WC : 3264]

Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:20 pm

We have both shown leniency towards eachother in the past. I hope that we can speed through this process to come to a compromise. Perhaps we can speed this up and get back to RPing and having fun if I make this complex issue as simple as possible by explaining the order.

The following events are listed in numerical order. The actions are listed in the order we each placed them in our posts, and in accordance to each turn.

This happened first, lets call it #1:

#1: "Umtari added to this by using the good old temporary paralysis jutsu the moment his head popped out from the bark, he did not even wait for his whole body to come out. Against Navi it would be of reduced use but it would still be important."

In response this happened, it will be event #2:

#2: "Immediately he was stuck by a paralysis jutsu, causing him to lose most of the movement in his body. Instead of bounding away he fell off the tree, which still did put some effective distance between him and Umtari."

(Please keep in mind that at this point I was hit by your jutsu, and have now fallen all the way down the length of the tree, which is quite a distance seeing how high Konoha trees stretch)

Then came the gas, this event was #3

#3 "Umtari’s left hand would emerge holding a grey canister with a light blue strip. A single finger would pull out a piece of metal after which seemingly nothing would happen."

(Gas does not instantly appear from a grenade and envelop a space the length of a Konoha tree, that would be absurd. With the gas presumably just beginning to spread and seep down.

I acknowledge you draw your gas canister at the end of my post: "Navi couldn't stand up, and stared at the strange canister that Umtari had produced. Unsure of what it was, Navi raised the kunai knife in his other hand forward to protect his chest."

Therefore, you drew your canister for the gas began to spread just after the kunai was thrown.)

Then came the kunai, this is event #4

#4 "Navi weakly threw one of his kunai at Umtari, which would seem like an obvious miss because of his paralysis. Navi did twitch his fingers ever so slightly to guide the trajectory though, attempting to bind and knock Umtari off of the tree with the steel wire it was attached to."

All of the above happened in a single turn. The gas has not enveloped me yet, and the wire is now right next to you (giving you the chance to dodge next turn). This was also the turn I was hit with paralysis and was unable to have full efficiency of my body or use chakra effectively. Paralysis wears off the following turn, and I will most likely be touched by the edge of the gas cloud next turn.

This is the Next turn. The first thing that happened at the beginning of your post #5:

#5 "True his fingers were so useless for a few moments that he could have genuinely missed but Umtari did not want to rely on that. Umtari finished emerging from the tree, standing a few meters above the still prostrate form of Navi."

(while you did go on to explain you were ready, you stood still, which doesn't constitute a dodge. For not dodging during this turn you have been binded by the wire.)

Confirming the hit at the beginning of my turn is #6

#6 "Umtari had been aware of the wire wrapping around him, but for some reason had chosen not to evade it. He did seem ready to jump off the branch if he felt in any immediate danger however. Umtari should have known from experience that being ready for the wire isn't enough, only immediate action could dodge it, especially when you can't even see the attack."

Next you fire your crossbow while I am on the ground at the base of the tree with the explosive bolt, this is #6

#6 "So, taking aim, Umtari fired. Given the extreme close range he could accurately do this with one arm so long as he braced the weapon against his shoulder."

(There is no reason for you not to hit your target in the given circumstances, putting the arrow a small distance from me, then detonating once it reaches its target. This is not autohitting, as you are not targeting me or playing out what happens to my character) [/color]

While I agree to take more damage from being blown back by your arrow, you have been binded by the wire attack. This is because the event of my attack came much before you fired your crossbow, and you chose not to dodge during your entire post.

Therefore, even before you fired your arrow, my attack had hit you and binded your leg.

Next post I also submit that the gas cloud will envelop my current position at the very bottom baseline of the tree.

I said that I would void my previous post if you took issue with it, and I will. I will rewrite it after we successfully resolve and compromise everything. Please give me back your input along with any problems you still have.

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:00 am

((Dealing first with the wire binding, I accept I did not dodge. However, I don’t have to. I deflected the attack, this is part of what the explosion does. It’s the same as you knocking arrows out of the air with your kunai earlier. I took an action that blew it off course . Coincidentally an action that takes less time than moving. If we were to adopt your system no one could deflect an attack, which is clearly not the case. The description in my post clearly states that his happened, the purpose is obvious. You are rejiging the timeline into an order in which events did not happen.

It should be 1. You throw the kunai 2. Umtari fires the bow momentarily afterwards (a reaction to the attack akin to a dodge) since the bolt travels much faster than a kunai it will reach the ground before the kunai reaches me. 3. The explosion, sending your kunai wildly off course by blowing, at a minimum the cable and your hand around, perhaps damaging them, and quite possible acting on the kunai itself. 4. Had none of the explosions occurred it would be at this point the kunai would have reached me. However, since the explosions did occur the kunai never gets to me or spins wildly out of control missing by a mile.

I also reject your proposition that the gas canister was drawn after you threw the kunai. It was clearly described in the post when I emerged and whilst I admit it emerged slightly after my head the time difference between the two is minimal and the pin was pulled immediately upon emergence. The gas started leaking whilst you were still falling through the air, when you hit the ground at the latest but certainly not after you threw the kunai. Also the language you used in your own post “stared at the strange canister Umtari had produced” does not give any indication of when the canister was produced. According to the language in that quote it could just have easily been drawn an hour ago as it could have been drawn a few seconds ago. Your reason does not stand.

I’ll grant you konoha trees are tall but this is in the tree line, trees are at their shortest there, plus even forest centre trees aren’t as tall as you describe. It’s also worth noting that the only way you could fall far enough to avoid the gas would involve breaking bones on landing, especially since you didn’t land well. It was hardly land on your feet and roll. Also, gas in gas grenades spreads hugely quickly, due to the massive pressures they are kept under for expressly that purpose.

In order to resolve this however, I propose the following. 1. The explosion occurs before the kunai gets to me, blowing it off course and I am not bound by it. 2. You take the increased damage as you volunteered as a result of the closer explosion. 3. The effects of the gas are delayed by one turn but you still get the dosage in your second post (the one we are currently debating) but you’ll start to notice the effects next turn. As ever none of this sets any precedent. ))

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:57 am

Shuuhei spent his time looking at his now bandaged leg and the sky. He was no longer pating attention to the spar, eventhough iy would of been benefitial to learning more from the two. Though, it was not like he could see them at he his current location. As he set back and rest, his gaze shifted over to Noroi. "Well, before this match, i've never heard or seen Navi before. And i am pretty blank on Umtari. All i know is that he uses a bow and arrow. And he also has some wierd paralysis Jutsu. Jusging how he did not weave any signs, it must mainly work with the eyes. I am going to gave to look up that technique and see how it works. Seems pretty powerful." he replies as he look to his bandaged leg. Noticing that the blood has stop some. "Hmm, the blood seems to have stopped." he anwsers as he looks off to the forest to his right.

Shifting his shoulders about as he motion his hands through his hair. His gaze would soon shift to the rock that came his way. Picking it up, he began to toss it up into the air, his gaze shifting back to Noroi as his left brow rosed. "A game?" he repeated. "What type of game?" he asked. He was a bit curious to find out, seeing as their legs were wounded and all. As he waited for a anwser, a breeze swept through and brush pass his skin. His hair shifted along with the small current as he continued to throw the rock into the air.

WC: 3500

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:36 pm

Gas grenades of all types take a long time to seep out, but since its Naruto I'll accept that with leniency.

I agree with both #2 and #3 of your proposal, but cannot agree with #1. An explosion would most likely alter the course of the kunai, but you cannot twist your words to say an attack also acts as defense. I absolutely understand your point in how realistically a crossbow bolt is faster and an explosion might might act to throw things off. However, my numerical order stands, this is not me twisting events, this is exactly what happened in the order it happened.

In the middle of my turn I aimed my attack, this requires an immediate dodge. Instead you said your character stood "ready" which is inadequate. Then proceeded to hold your canister in one hand, level the cross bow in your other hand. Then aim the explosive round next to me. (by this time the wire will have indeed binded you if you are standing still. Maybe you jumped to another branch, or moved a few meters to the side then you would have gotten further away.

You fired your crossbow at the very end of your turn (the rest of your turn was observation and not action). I object that your crossbow was fired too late. Yes the crossbow will have the same effect, hit its target, and hurt me. This doesn't stop the fact that my attack has successfully binded your ankle.

Ex. Navi aimed a punch at Umtari. Umtari stood ready for the punch. Umtari aimed a kick at Navi, which would cause his punch to miss.

I know that a "kick" isn't an explosion. This doesn't change the fact of the order this has happened. My attack would hit you first in accordance to the order things have happened. Then your crossbow bolt would be fired, hit and explode. In essence we are trading blows because 1. You chose not to dodge and 2. I could not dodge from paralysis. I'm glad we came to a compromise on two of the three problems, which is good progress. I hope we can come to a resolution soon. ]

Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:09 pm

((I only write lengthy observations to avoid doubt on various key aspects and to provide flavour for the battle, it takes no actual time. I regret to say that I find myself unable to move from my timeline. I also deny the fact that an attack cannot also be a defence, the explosive force would be able to move the kunai and the attached cable so long as it was not taught and securely anchored at both ends. I continue to contend that it was not securely anchored around my leg as I have acted before the kunai caught me.

To use your own example.

Navi aimed a punch at Umtari, Umtari did not move to avoid the punch but instead kicked Navi in such a way as that Navi would be kept at too great a distance to land the punch.

That is a closer approximation to how things have gone in our battle.

I find myself unable to move from my current position. Of the two points now agreed one was essentially uncontentious, for the other I have followed your preferred version of events, partly for the sake of diplomacy and ease. It is the strongest of your objections so that is the one I conceded. However, I consider the point I am currently defending to be the strongest of my arguments and will therefore stick by it. Partly because that is what is right and justified and partly because I hope you will engage in the spirit of compromise and concede the kunai point as I have conceded the gas one.

If you do not I am unsure as to how we can progress.))